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Edeep

gathering : how to ?

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plop , 

Last night we discussed a little about about what could weld the industry  guys to the pvp cheaters .Very quickly it was obvious that the current rift is more about where everyone is than what everyone does .

currently :

- industry guys are in minmatar space , mining ice , they don't plan to move unless there are most isk involved .

- PvP cheaters are engage in caldari-gallente FW , they don't plan to move because the amarr-minmatar FW is pretty much non existant .Also i don't know for the other but i consider myselft to be in PvP school , slowly (re)learning the ropes .

- 39 jumps separate industry from pvp .

 

-Null sec ops :

the price tag to rent a null system is very high , and there is to much security , while it would be Very profitable for industry it will be less than fun for PvP .Needless to say i fear the industry will not be very happy when they will discover that they are paying most of the rent  , more play time and more isk compare to the rest .

-Low sec ops :

no rent , fun because completely unpredictable , not limited to one system , FW compliant .But it also means that we could encounter capital fleet , huge blob of players .We will need some pos and mainly to remove pos , currently we cannot do that by ourself .So we would need help from a null sec alliance , and we would need to set it up a way that would be profitable for them as it would be for us .Basically it's like paying a rent but with less isk and more "services" .Also industry guys must accept to loose ships .

-Whormhole ops :

i can only talk of what i know , i don't know whormholes aside that amarr ships seam to be very at ease with them .Please someone ?

 

While i don't see industry and PvP getting closer now ,it should happens one day and it does not cost us to think about it , like :  what kind of space (null ,low , wh) , what would be the critical mass of players needed , what system (spot) , etc ...

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Part of the problem is that I don't know what the PVP players can provide the Industry players as part of the bargain. Industry can provide money and below-market prices on hulls and equipment, and probably transport...but what do they get in return? Protection, to an extent, but they'd have to be in the warzone (more risk) for the PVP guys to truly protect them. And then, only against certain threats. 

I'd love to see all GOTR working together for a common purpose, but I can't figure out what the purpose is, especially considering that the Industry group is focusing on Ice, not Mineral mining and manufacturing. I'll talk with Gem, Dub, and ghandi and see what I can come up with. If anyone else has any ideas, let me know.

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I've heard talk about doing some wormhole ops. We would all find and chill in a WH for a weekend or so. This would allow for some good ISK for Ethereal Logistics and a very different sort of PvP for House Mijaala. EL would mine and HM would scan and scout out neighboring holes and provide protection for the miners. I think it could be a lot of fun for everyone and give me a chance to really fly my Astero. :P

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If I may comment as an outsider. I played EvE Online for almost a decade and left mostly because my gaming tastes changed and the wonder of EvE wears off after you have done everything and lived everywhere. I had characters that have more than 190Mil SP and Isk kissing the 300 Billion mark. Been in large coalitions and small corps. Lived as Russian 0.0 renters and also as 0.0 landlords. FW, Incursions, low-sec pirates, Black-Ops battleship gankers, mining (high, low, and 0.0), ship building, Super Capital Ship piloting, I mean literally everything. And while I might not play with ya'll I'd like to think I can speak intelligently on the matter.

It seems to me that you have the normal rifts between Industrialists (carebears) and PvPers (griefers). And that has been a staple of any EvE group for as long as I can remember. And really the only time you can get those to groups to coexist is either in a large 0.0 coalition or forced to survive in a WH.

Coalition life frankly blows as the game mostly become about the meta of EvE rather than the game of EvE. Living in a WH though, forces everyone to depend on everyone else in the group for survival. You have to make stuff in there or you'll 'starve' and you HAVE to fight to protect it or someone or thing will take it from you. Mountains of money can be made in there as well as immortal glory in combat. Its scary as hell at first but folks have been doing WH space exclusively for years now so it can be done.

The great thing about EvE being as old as it is are there are endless and exhaustive resources about every aspect of the game. Check out some WH guides and dive in. It will be the best why to bring the groups together in my opinion.

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I might be able to help, I've been inside wormholes and have some (probably outdated...) knowledge.  My actual experience predates the new stuff.  http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Mobile_Structures made WH life easier, for instance.  For a nice minibase, anchor a container at a safe spot with a depot or two inside and use them for refitting.  Can't scan down containers, CAN scan down depots and ships.  A nice cloaked blockade runner as loot holder would be the safest best to extract stuff, and another ship with probes.

For instance: wormholes are scary.  There is no local chat, so your only real warning is d-scan or... well, that's pretty much it.  You just try and cover your butt, and bail before an attacking force can wipe more than a couple people out, cloaks make things weird, but cloaking (non-T3) combat ships has some VERY tough consequences.  You will know that a location/ship/system is compromised by a covops that snuck in, when an assault fleet drops out of warp on your head, or comes through a wormhole that your fleet is watching.  Watching holes is boring, I've done it.

If you can get into an unoccupied hole, though, watch all the incoming holes, and collapse them as needed, it works.  If you have a direct empire WH, you can resupply easier, but will very likely have company.  You may or may not get invaded by people who specialize in invading wormholes.  As the holes rotate, you'll need to scan and scout them for paths to empire space.

On the plus side, it's pretty lucrative, though.  IF you can handle the Sleepers.  If you can get a POS up, and justify the expense, you can stay longer a bit easier.

Probe launchers and skills are required for all pilots.  You're setting yourself up for an embarrassing demise/self-destruct otherwise.

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I have only been playing for a couple of days butt would it be worth it to have a titian and a roqual and then use those as the base for us to build our own fleet in way out of the way null sec

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Killer , have you any idea of how long it takes to actually have a titan with a proper fit ? short answer is very very very long and very very very expensive , only for alliance in null .The roqual just take  very long time .Those are very long term goals , don't bother with capitals ships now  , if you need a skill plan check evemon software with what you want to do in mind (exploration , market , pvp , pve , industry , mining  ,etc )

 

@robocpf1 : the industry guys could enjoy logistic support , moving stuff around , beside it would be entertaining to learn how to properly organize a convoy and defend it .Of course logistic is also needed for PvP

Edited by Edeep

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That's why I prefaced it with I have only been playing for a couple of days. I also assumed that someone would have Javelin's level of experience and ships

Edited by killerofa23

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50 minutes ago, killerofa23 said:

That's why I prefaced it with I have only been playing for a couple of days. I also assumed that someone would have Javelin's level of experience and ships

The problem isn't experience or the skills, it's money. The cost of a Rorqual is roughly 7x our entire net worth at the moment.

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How about getting a blueprint and making it our selves? I would think that EL would like to help out with this because it means that they could use the Roqual to boost their mining and make it safer in low sec?

Please correct me if I am completely off base 

noob here playing devils advocate .

Edited by killerofa23

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1 hour ago, killerofa23 said:

How about getting a blueprint and making it our selves? I would think that EL would like to help out with this because it means that they could use the Roqual to boost their mining and make it safer in low sec?

Please correct me if I am completely off base 

noob here playing devils advocate .

I think it would still take a long time and a lot of resources. Plus at that point it feels like we'd be putting al our eggs in one basket. Further, we'd need to use it in 0.0 or WH space to make the best use of it. In Null it would get dropped on very quickly and destroyed. For wormholes we'd need a very large wormhole as it's a capital class industrial ship. Those WHs are also the most lucrative and likely to attract unwanted attention where it would again get dropped on and I'm not sure we'd have the PvP support to be able to effectively defend it and recoup the cost.

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Another thing to consider: We have been approached by DERP, and Shib (Mr Twinkie) from The-Culture about nullsec alliances. I'm not saying we should jump at it, but we should at least take it into consideration.

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Null's not for me lads, neither is WH. Both are very different play styles to low. If you want lots of relatively easy isk and very large fleet battles. Null is definitely a good option. WHs are fun in their own way too, especially if you want to supplement your income with PvE. However (though with all things eve, there are exceptions) WHs breed players adapted to WH combat and with a lot of cash, i.e armor HACs, rattlesnakes. Coraxes will not get you far there.

Regarding mining, the Isk/risk/time balance on low sec  mining is abysmal. if you enjoy gas huffing there's a little money there in WH.

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how to attract EL in more dangerous region , as mining goes ,valuable ore in low sec is Jaspet , and there is nearly no point mining jaspet over plagioclase (high sec) given the risks .Ice is worst , low sec and high sec ice products have more or less the same selling price .Now on the bright side  there is far less comptition .

there is gas harvesting , yea sure , but interesting stuff are in dangerous places and risks are much highers .And for those juicy stuffs you would need armed escort meaning less isk per head after split .

i will dig planetary intraction to see if there is money to be make .

 

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Reading back through I thought I'd throw my two cents in regarding the whole industrial/pvp corp differences

1. There is no benefit to the industrial corp coming over here and supplying ships to us. Absolutely none, it will reduce their isk/hr and safety. The reason for them being interested in doing that for us would be an interest in helping to win the war. I.e our combined efforts would be directed on empowering PVP pilots to patrol, take fights and reship quickly. Things like convoys don't exist because in Hi-Sec not attracting attention is the best form of tank. Think of EVE as an RTS or like a Sim-City. you would have industrial members pumping out ships (or more realistically money as that's more usable) and outfitting PVP pilots with racks of implants and pirate faction ships.

The benefit to the industrialists is nil, other than the fact that our overall goal which is to win at PVP is more attainable. Considering that our members aren't unthinking robots, this is not very appealing. What most corps do is have industrial alts  to fund their PVP efforts (Aideron have a whole corp for this) that can tick along in the background. Passive isk is a PVPers best friend. EVE doesn't work like a real war, because we're here for fun.

2. The answer for House Mijaala is we passively generate our own isk. One day CCP might introduce an LP tax, which would solve all our problems. Until then Planetary interaction is an option, as is exploration.

In Summary. The industrialists don't need us and we don't really need them, EVE isn't built to make it profitable.

 

 

 

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About planetary interactions , high vs low sec ===> NO . too few isk .

it seams aside alts toons there are currently no way for us to be in the same place  , sad but true , will see where it goes as the game evolve .

Now aside the mining foreman bonus , if any EL member could tell me the benefit of moving my mining alt from a nice and profitable place where there is no competition , few jumps to sell coupled with super low taxes .I don't mind to lose 1 or 2% of my little (tiny?) mining income but i need to know if that can serve a greater goal .

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Update: It appears that our industrial guys are making the jump to nullsec to live with DNS (Dirt Nap Squad). They're friendly with the Russians and have an area of Drone Space carved out. 

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I've long since lost my Russian phrases, but they seem to be available.  Expanded, even.

https://eveinfo.net/wiki/ind~1495.htm

Enjoy.

Я хочу чтобы вы облили меня кленовым сиропом и улыбнулись

Edited by EvilSmoo

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